DACA Students File a Lawsuit Demanding In-State Tuition

In the latest attempt to allow certain illegal immigrants to attend one of Georgia’s college and universities and pay in-state tuition, two Georgia Perimeter College students have filed a federal lawsuit against the Board of Regents and many of the University System College presidents. The suit claims that the students have had their rights violated under the 14th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and that the Constitution’s supremacy clause, which states that federal law is the supreme law of the land.

Lorena Guillen and Karla Lopez are students paying out of state tuition at Georgia Perimeter College. Both are participating in the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program instituted by President Obama that allows certain undocumented immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children to obtain work permits and driver’s licenses. While they are classified as having a lawful presence in the country under DACA, these students are not considered lawfully present by the Board of Regents.

The lawsuit asks the court to issue an injunction against charging DACA students from Georgia as out of state residents, restitution of tuition and fees paid over and above the in-state tuition rate, and compensatory damages.

In February, the Georgia Supreme Court rejected a separate lawsuit seeking in-state tuition for undocumented students. The court did not address the merits of the case, however, saying that the Board of Regents had sovereign immunity from a suit. This latest suit against the Board of Regents and college presidents addresses them individually as well as part of the Board, which the Supreme Court indicated might pass muster.

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John Konop
John Konop

Do you think in any country in the world they would grant in state tuition to a non citizen of the country let alone not even being from the state? First, would this not force schools to get rid of out of state tuition, if a non citizen of our country gets this, why not a foreign student with a proper visa or a US citizen from another state? Since public schools are subsidized by the government who pays the shortfall in revenue via cheaper tuition? We need to put in real discipline with budgets before making rash financial decisions… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Funny you should ask: The BBC ran a story on American students getting their Bachelor’s degree in Germany. No tuition. Same student fees as German nationals and citizens of EU member countries. http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678 Similar article ran a few weeks ago. Wish I’d have known about this before racking up a whole bunch of student loan debt. http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/23/pf/college/free-college-europe/ Finland has a 1500 Euro fee for non-EU students, other than that, tuition is free (well, except living expenses): http://www.studyinfinland.fi/tuition_and_scholarships/tuition_fees “The majority of Norwegian universities and state university colleges are publicly funded and the Norwegian government considers access to higher education for all… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

For some reason, my other comment is awaiting moderation. So I’ll give the rundown without links…

Germany, Finland, and Norway do not charge tuition. American students can attend college in these countries for free.*

Finland requires a 1500 Euro “fee” for non-EU students. None of these countries, to my knowledge, cover living expenses, just tuition. So mom and dad are still on the hook for the cost of meals and a flat in Berlin, Helsinki, or Oslo.

I’m sure there are other countries as well, that was just the fruit of my 5 minutes of research.

John Konop
John Konop

Andrew,

Who pays for it? You and Josh McKoon are big on spending tax payers money without a real plan!

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

At no point have I advocated for free college tuition. Similarly, I don’t think Sen. McKoon has advocated for it either. Maybe it’s a good idea to not turn every phrase into a chance to jump down someone’s throat on RFRA or another unrelated issue. I was simply providing you links to show that other industrialized Western states don’t make tuition distinctions based on nation of origin, citizenship, etc. As for assessing in-state tuition on DACA students, I think it’s only fair. They went to Georgia high schools, their parents live in Georgia, they likely have an intent to reside.… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

…..I think it’s only fair…….

Ideologues like you and Josh need to think about economic impact.

The difference per student is almost 20 thousand dollars. Once again who pays the 20k per student? I was just as tough on Josh via his RFRA bill.

Georgia Resident

Tuition and Fees $11,622 vs. out of state $29,832

John Konop
John Konop

Andrew, The reason we are 2 trillion in student loan liabilities with massive default rates, 70 percent of lending guaranteed by tax payers, Medicare Part D bill that will BK our country, No Child Left behind that shifted school funding toward administrative overhead and testing companies, verse the classrooms, endless war in the Middle East post Iraq at 2 trillion, I could go on and on…but at the end both parties have put us 21 trillion in the red, not including lending liabilities and future entitlement cost, because all of this was done by people thinking they were doing the… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

1) The cost of educating a student does not increase or decrease based on the student’s home state. So your assumption that it costs an extra $20,000 for UGA to educate a student from Alabama is incorrect. I don’t know the exact cost per student at UGA or any other in-state institution and I have neither the time nor interest to calculate it. I will hazard an assumption that out-of-state students are subsidizing in-state students, to a certain extent, via their higher tuition rate. 2) You are, no surprise, misinterpreting my position. My position is that students covered by DACA… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

……….So your assumption that it costs an extra $20,000 for UGA to educate a student ……… It is not my assumption, it cost about 20k extra a year per student for your plan based on UGA tuition. It is fairly simple math, everyone of the students we would get 20k less in tuition. That revenue would have to be made up by a plan, what is your plan? Yes, I am lumping yoyu in with Sen McKoon, I have asked him the same type of question numerous times on this blog. Would Sen. McKoon guarantee with his own money any… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

But I’m not advocating a flat tuition for everyone! Seriously, can you not read what I’m typing? Granting a handful of students in-state tuition is not going to somehow crash our college and university system. We already grant in-state status to out-of-state students who apply for it. We already grant in-state status to out-of-state football players. Why is this any different? If you’re concerned about balancing out the cost, then raise tuition rates. A huge hike won’t be necessary, since the number of students this will impact is relatively low. But there’s one way you can do it without having… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

………balancing out the cost, then raise tuition rates……

You propose to increase tuition even more while student debt is getting out of control via the cost of college?

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Case in point.

I’m not an elected official, dude. I’m not a candidate for anything. Never have been, never intend to be. You, however, seem to have mastered the art of blowing statements out of proportion and crafting strawmen out of thin air.

John Konop
John Konop

You just made my point, like Josh Mckoon you support what you feel is right with no regard to the expense to tax payers. Now we know why are country is so far in the red.

Benevolus
Benevolus

Never mind ACP. He’s too busy grinding axes to be able to read clearly.

bethebalance
bethebalance

there also needs to be a distinction, albeit a fine one perhaps, between citizenship status and “residency”. my guess is that, although i may be wrong, is that the folks seeking in-state tuition actually reside in-state. so the argument is basically that in the context of tuition, at least, residency raises concerns of equitable treatment, regardless of citizenship status. foreign students could not be considered true residents, as residency requires an intent to permanently reside, and visas with time limits preclude that. on the other hand, these individuals have an intent to reside here permanently, the question is just whether… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

…….these individuals have an intent to reside here permanently…..

Anyone can claim intent?

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

You’re right, anyone can claim intent. Just like I did when I applied for in-state residency when I went to an out-of-state grad school. Did I intend to stay? I mean, I would have had I gotten a job there but that was because I liked it there, not because of some standard university form I filled out.

John Konop
John Konop

You think every kid no matter where they live should get in state tuition anywhere?

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

If they apply for it and meet the standards the university sets forth for in-state residency status… yes.

Generally this means some combination of activities that evidence an intent to become a resident of that state (i.e., changing your driver’s license, registering your car, registering to vote, renting an apartment, buying a house, getting a job, paying utilities, etc.).

John Konop
John Konop

Who pays for it? We are talking about an extra 20k per year, per student.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

No. We aren’t. Because the cost of educating a student does not fluctuate based on his/her status as an out-of-state student. If you can’t grasp that simple fact then there is no hope of you ever understanding the issue before us. Despite the fact I feel like I’m banging my head against a wall, I’ll try and cross your bridge. Giving a student in-state status after they manifest some sort of intent to reside in the state actually benefits us. Why? Because we’ve now added an intelligent, college-educated person to our population. We’ve added a person who will (theoretically) get… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

If you get 20k less per student you have to make up the difference some how? If it is cuts that propose the cuts or we tax payers will have to pay. Not anymore complicated.

Benevolus
Benevolus

What if there was a really good football player who was a Dreamer? Would you offer him/her a scholarship?

John Konop
John Konop

All based on revenue, if the program could justify the cost of scholarships based on net revenue, I have no issue. But if the cost is put on tax payers no way.

Benevolus
Benevolus

“According Georgia’s Budget and Policy Institute, the state loses approximately $10 million in lost tax revenue, annually, when excluding some immigrant students from the same in-state tuition rates as in-resident Georgians.

“The state can add an estimated $10 million per year to state and local coffers through a more skilled, higher earning workforce if it allows Georgians to pay in-state tuition at any public college or university if they are eligible to work without threat of deportation,” the report noted, which was released in August.”
http://www.latinpost.com/articles/88078/20151019/immigration-news-2015-georgia-daca-recipients-continue-fight-state-college.htm

Do you dispute this?

John Konop
John Konop

Illogical math, if you educate the same amount of students you just added the extra cost on every kid you do not get the proper tuition. If you educate more students, with less revenue you just created a larger shortfall.

Saltycracker
Saltycracker

As an undocumented judge, on in state tuition to fellow undocumenteds, I rule NO.

Eric
Eric

So they can go through all the procedures of filling a lawsuit and the legal processes related to that but they can’t file to become a citizen? lol give me a break

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

They were brought to the US as kids. They filed for the DACA program, which is the closest thing to citizenship they can get.

Benevolus
Benevolus

Let’s say UGA is 80% in-state and 20% out of state. Granting these kids in-state doesn’t mean UGA will suddenly have to go to 90% in-state. It just means these kids will have to compete for whatever in-state slots are available. It doesn’t change the revenue at all. Have I got something wrong?

John Konop
John Konop

Now, you are suggesting taking slots away from American citizens, and replace them with illegal immigrants?

Lea Thrace
Lea Thrace

Holy cow John. What is your problem?!

Your conclusion jumping is EPIC. Seriously EPIC. Take a breather dude.

John Konop
John Konop

Lea,

In all due respect Andrew and B do not deny my “conclusion jumping” it is basic math. They both agree that the choice would be either raise rates, and or eliminate spots from Georgia legal citizens. Really it is basic story problem in math. I am sorry do I need to help you with the math?

FROM ANDREW:

………balancing out the cost, then raise tuition rates……

FROM B

…Let’s say UGA is 80% in-state and 20% out of state…..

Lea Thrace
Lea Thrace

Neither of them appear to have said any such thing…

Going to go ahead and throw my hands up on this one. I respect you and your insight but man do you go off the rails very quickly. I’m done.

Benevolus
Benevolus

There may be arguments for not granting this request, but I don’t think economics is one of them.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

My understanding, Bene, is that they’ve already applied and been admitted, they simply want to pay the in-state rate.

Benevolus
Benevolus

Thanks for the clarification. Still, I don’t think the university changes their in-state/out of state mix because of this. Maybe there is a one-time small change because of a late change in status, but long-term the revenue is the same.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Took a look at the numbers and did some rough math…
UGA’s first year enrollment for fall 2015 was 5,300 students. UGA reports 13% of the entering class came from out-of-state. 213 students, that’s 4%, came from outside the US (DACA students would be considered international students under UGA’s categorization).

Assuming all of the international students admitted to UGA are children of undocumented immigrants (which is not the case, but UGA hasn’t provided the number that are), you’re talking about making in-state tuition available to 4% of the student body, at most.

John Konop
John Konop

…..you’re talking about making in-state tuition available to 4% of the student body, at most………. The point is clear it is 20k less revenue per student, the two suggestions were raise tuition for students who cannot afford it now, or give away spots to illegal immigrants over legal Georgia citizens. The reason I am making this point is both sides make decisions on what they feel without thinking about how it effects the tax payers. I have made this point on a local, state and national level for years. You can see this I have been consistent on this from… Read more »

Benevolus
Benevolus

I am really only arguing the financial aspect of it. People may have emotional problems with their legal status, but that is a different argument.

So in 2017 UGA accepts 213 more students from out of state than it did this year (and 213 less from in-state). Money recovered. Then they can go back to their normal numbers in 2018.

John Konop
John Konop

What you are saying is tax eat close to 500k last year just at UGA, and 213 legal Georgia residence no longer qualify for in state tuition at UGA, because their spot was taking way by an illegal immigrant? And this policy would multiply in expense and or Georgia legal students not qualifying for in state tuition by every college in Georgia?

Benevolus
Benevolus

You are in campaign mode aren’t you. Are you going to run against McKoon?

John Konop
John Konop

LOL….I have said the same thing for years as you know, no matter what side.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

I don’t think it’s as simple as saying, just take 213 more out-of-state students. For one, the actual number of DACA students going to UGA is much lower than 213. Remember that 213 figure includes all international students. Second, it assumes that UGA needs to make up the “revenue” lost when you convert out-of-state tuition payers to in-state tuition payers. UGA already allows out-of-state students to apply for in-state residency, which indicates they aren’t that concerned about revenue changes resulting from a change in residency status. I believe the residency requirements may have gotten more stringent since my time at… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

Andrew, As you know I like you, but it seems obvious you have never ran a business. I have led numerous turn around in the business world, and when interviewed about it, I made it clear it is never a silver bullet. It is combination of implementing numerous disciplines that add up to successful business strategy. When you take over a company in the red, it is culture that bleeds through a company that their area does not need the fiscal help because it is not that much. But when you add all the not that much it is a… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

What the heck are you even talking about?

John Konop
John Konop

You are pushing an agenda that you ideologically support, yet are willing to put the extra expanses on tax payers and or willing to give up in state tuition spaces to illegal immigrants over legal Georgia citizens. I support the dreamer act, but it cannot be used to squeeze out Americans and or create extra expenses on tax payers.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Extra expanses on tax payers? I wasn’t aware we were debating the national parks budget as well. 1) As I said before, there are not “in state tuition spaces.” There’s no in-state quota for UGA or, as far as I know, any other state university. 2) No one is losing a space to an “illegal immigrant” because these students have already applied to, and been admitted to, a public college or university. 3) Allowing these kids to apply for in-state tuition is no different then allowing a student from North Carolina to apply for in-state tuition. 4) UGA only gets… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

……..1) As I said before, there are not “in state tuition spaces.” There’s no in-state quota for UGA or, as far as I know, any other state university……. Obviously you have never put a budget together, at 20k difference per student a year, logic would tell you they only have so many slots. …….2) No one is losing a space to an “illegal immigrant” because these students have already applied to, and been admitted to, a public college or university……. If they are current students we lost 20k per student based on UGA fee structure for every student, if we… Read more »

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

If this was your debate style against Tom Price, it’s no wonder he got 80%+ of the vote. If the BOR truly thought that people changing from oos to in-state was that big of a deal on the budgets at the state’s colleges and universities, they wouldn’t let people do it in the first place or, at the very least, they’d make it difficult for an out of state student to obtain in-state residency. Your version of the math on this is not only embarrassingly, woefully, and shamefully incorrect and ill-informed, but it’s also incredibly short sighted. In-state tuition, or… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

Style or not, I was right about the last economic collapse via the economy being over-leverage with government backed loans , No Child Left behind, policemen of the world foreign policy and Medicare Part D being a bad bill. The truth is not what people want to hear all the time…. I am right about this, or you would not resort to cheap shots.

John Konop
John Konop

….1) As I said before, there are not “in state tuition spaces.” There’s no in-state quota for UGA or, as far as I know, any other state university….. Obviously the budget is based on this via a difference of 20k per student in tuition rate. Which translate into X amount of in state tuition slots. Obviously the state makes more money with out of state students. ….2) No one is losing a space to an “illegal immigrant” because these students have already applied to, and been admitted to, a public college or university…… Read above ie budget issues or slot… Read more »

Benevolus
Benevolus

If you are worried about any possible budget implications then perhaps you could support accepting them but deferring their admittance until next year, when they would just be in the pool of in-state students from the start instead of changing their status after they’ve been accepted.

John Konop
John Konop

B,

You and I have been friends for awhile, and trust me, my wife and I treat our own money the same way with our family.

Benevolus
Benevolus

Come on John. If these kids are just part of the regular pool of applicants, then this is not a financial issue, right? The money would be exactly the same. The schools wouldn’t be taking any more or less students either from in-state or out of state. I could see how it might possibly cost a small amount more if they get in-state <this year, but even that would be easily rectified next year. Companies do this sort of thing all the time, as I am sure you know. Unexpected expenses sometimes occur but they are usually easily dealt with… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

I think it would create between a 10 to 20mm shortfall a year if it did effect the number of in state tuition in the budget. . Someone should run the numbers…

Benevolus
Benevolus

I am trying to get you to admit that this isn’t really about finances. If DACA kids are just in the pool of applicants, it doesn’t change anything financially. You have hinted at this by deflecting to other concerns before, but we should be clear: There are no financial repercussions to this. If anyone wants to argue other aspects of their case, fine, we can have that discussion, but perhaps this one is done?

John Konop
John Konop

…I am trying to get you to admit that this isn’t really about finances..

I only speak for myself it is all about the math…..

Benevolus
Benevolus

Give me some math.
If DACA kids are just part of the resident pool of applicants, how does that cost more money?

John Konop
John Konop

They either take away slots for legal Georgia citizens or 20k extra per student per year.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Just give up, B. He’s clearly evidenced his unwillingness to accept the basic factual realities necessary to have an enlightened discussion on the matter.

Andrew C. Pope
Andrew C. Pope

Correction… Looks like DACA students are not allowed to go to UGA, Tech, GSU, GCSU or Augusta State. That, quite frankly, is even more BS than not letting them have in-state tuition. As for budget shortfalls, I think it’s difficult to calculate for a number of reasons. 1) We don’t know how many students we’re talking about, 2) people are still falsely assuming that admissions decisions are being made based on how many out of state tuition dollars are coming in, as I pointed out earlier the number of students who will be in-state eligible is likely going to have… Read more »

John Konop
John Konop

Andrew,

College cost is out of control you are moving in the wrong direction with extra cost.

Benevolus
Benevolus

I do give up. I wouldn’t mind discussing the non-financial aspects of their admittance though. Oh well.