HB 481 Is Actively Harming Georgia–But That’s Not The Real Lesson
So, yeah, maybe the overriding lesson is that we shouldn’t have legislators grandstanding on poorly-written laws.
We now have actors and and production companies (here, here, and here) refusing to work in Georgia because of the law. As the resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue makes clear; anything that’s bad for jobs is on it’s own bad. Even the MPAA was quick to warn Georgia that 90,000+ jobs and some $9.5 billion was generated by the film industry.
But once again the real lesson is we see the dangers of wanting to rush to the bottom with other states to lure industries and businesses. Doubly so when said industry doesn’t align with the values of the legislature.
Of course we can’t know how much of the film industry may leave Georgia. But there’s no reason for it to stay if other states are willing to offer themselves up and be more aligned with Hollywood’s mores.
Did I also mention there’s going to be an ungodly amount of money spent challenging this in court and there’s already a preliminary injunction so whatever benefit was to come from HB 481 is nowhere near the horizon.
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None of these cogent arguments matter, sadly. The Christian right proponents of this anti-abortion legislation think abortion is murder. They literally think aborting an embryo at 12 weeks is akin to murdering a living, breathing human being. When you think that way, Hollywood and their jobs can go screw themselves – – saving human lives is more important than jobs or movies.
And Republican politicians in Georgia who know that 12 week embryos are not humans, who know that abortion is not the same thing as murdering a human being, will never relent to cogent arguments because of how they cater to their constituents.
All mass murdered school children had a heartbeat, too. Ok, heavy handed, but my point is – sanctity for life cannot be held on high for just one cause. Otherwise it’s just political hypocrisy.
How about when legislature doesn’t align with the values of the people? rhetorical.
Another point of note. I don’t see the usual major business players speaking out against HB 481 yet either. As you say, it’s all on hold via the courts, so these players and the film industry are mostly in a business as usual mode.
Don’t demonize all the Hollywood folks working here as having the same opinion. I work with a lot of very conservative minded production personnel from out of town.
I bet it’s coming though. I mean, Coca Cola or Delta or Home Depot just can’t pick up and leave like these production companies can. But next time a Delta hub or a Home Depot expansion come up, I would expect it to come up then.
And how about real estate developers, sports events like NCAA tournaments, and conventions?
Let all the Hollywood leftists leave. Please. But unfortunately I doubt they will. The Geirgia economy is booming and will continue to. We will not even feel their departure. Sure, there will be some unfortunate anecdotal examples of folks being hurt by this. But those folks are just gonna have to be collateral damage in the left’s war against Christianity.
Cyber alone will dwarf what Hollywood produces in Georgia. And then some. Georgia does not need Hollywood. And we don’t want Hollywood.
And yes to the suggestion regarding
this in another thread. We need to rescind those tax breaks. Let them pay full freight in California
So we say to the leftists: Delta is ready when you are.
95,000 people with good paying jobs and thousands of local businesses disagree. It would hurt many people and the Georgia economy by losing billions in lost jobs and business. Once again you take ill defined group ‘A’ (LEFT) and decide it does ‘B’ (War on Christianity). The true war on Christianity comes from the extremist, regressive right that refuses to practice true Christian beliefs yet claim their way is sovereign. Back at yah, AM. See how easy it is to twist crap around with your own not-so-logic?
Substitute “Muslim” for “Christianity” and you sound like a conservative in Pakistan. It’s conservatives shooting up and burning churches, temples, and mosques.
To my mind, the goal of HB 481, and all the other states’ similar legislation has less to do with abortion and more to do with 2020 election politics. As a matter of practicality, HB 481 isn’t going to hold up in courts of law until it reaches the Supreme Court. At that point, perhaps some sort of accommodation can be reached. Meanwhile, the issue is almost always on the evening news and in the papers.
Looking at the bell-shaped chart of voters, those at the extremes (both left and right) will continue to maintain their positions and march around in righteous self-indignation. It is the voters in the middle who are getting pushed around by this, constantly being reminded of the impact of their potential actions in 2020.
Ultimately, the production companies are still economic entities and are going to respond to the financial incentives. And, there’s the interesting euphemism “Hollywood Accounting“. Even if there were no HB 481, sooner or later, another state is bound to get the idea that they, too, can become the movie capitol of the world by passing economic legislation. It’s a little harder to gauge the actors’ real sentiments in this since they are, after all, professionals whose job is to convey sentiments and emotions, ones that are not necessarily real ones.
And, there is the dynamic between those who were born in a place and have made it their own against those who have moved into a certain place simply to enjoy the benefits. North Georgia comes to mind; long-term residents are often delighted when a new Wal-Mart comes to town because it means more selections at better prices. Those who have just moved up there to get away from the clamor of the big city are appalled. And, things start happening at the ballot box, too.
All good points.
A few points here:
1) Abortion is obviously murder. This has nothing to do with religion. Rather, it is basic biology as human life with its own unique DNA begins at conception. The reason that many religious people don’t rationalize away the reality of abortion is because they are less committed to the ideology of the sexual revolution that sees abortion as a necessary backstop if and when birth control fails and/or is not properly used. Hollywood folks are all about the sexual revolution, so it’s little wonder they are so supportive of abortion. That said, we as a society could do a lot more to help poor women with children and could promote more effective contraception such as LARCS. Reducing abortion rates can’t simply be about outlawing it. Most women have abortions because they feel trapped and see an unplanned pregnancy as destroying their future, not because they really want to have an abortion. This should tell us that abortion is a sign that we as a society often fail women. Surely we can do better. Those on the right should be willing to pay more taxes to help the poor and thus reduce abortions further.
2) The reason that corporations are silent about abortion is because they could face a major backlash if they take either side. Beyond Hollywood, I doubt major corporations will say or do much about HB 481. This article sums up the problems from the corporate perspective:
https://news.yahoo.com/corporate-america-abortion-just-too-hot-handle-012222697.html
3) As for Hollywood, I’d love for the state of Georgia or an economist at an R1 USG school to conduct a detailed cost/benefit study on the lost tax revenue for the film subsides versus the money the film industry generates in Georgia. In several other states that have tried this, it has been a big money loser for the state. As such, I’d be surprised if this is not true as well in Georgia. If that is the case, it is nothing but corporate welfare and should be ended. It’s ironic that those of the left defend this. I guess it depends on whose corporate ox is being gored. It might well be a net blessing in disguise for Georgia if Hollywood were to pick up and leave.
You don’t have to be a fan of corporate welfare to understand that if we don’t do it then Tennessee or North Carolina will.
Not ironic, just practicality.
Benevolus,
That’s a terrible argument. If tax subsides to Hollywood are a net loss to the state of Georgia, as it has been to all other states who have done this to date, then why should Georgia care if Tennessee or North Carolina are foolish enough to do something that loses money? If those states want to blow money on corporate welfare, that’s their prerogative. However, as a citizen of the state of Georgia and as a Georgia taxpayer, I don’t want Georgia to waste money that could go to our schools or kids in foster care or a number of other needs in Georgia, supporting wealthy, out of state Hollywood film companies. That’s stupid, immoral and a waste of taxpayer money.
It is also insult to injury that Hollywood takes money from Georgia and then turns around and lectures us on what sort of laws to pass on abortion, or anything else for that matter. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you. Moreover, personally, I don’t watch much in the way of movies or television because the vast majority of what Hollywood produces is either boring, is garbage or both. So why should a middle class guy like me have to pay to help out wealthy Hollywood companies that I think mostly don’t produce quality products worth my time of day?
Again, the state of Georgia really should do a detailed cost/benefit study on this issue. If it comes back that it cost the state of Georgia more money in lost tax revenue than Hollywood generates in Georgia, which I suspect that it will as that has always been the case in other states, then the state of Georgia should end the film tax subsidies. Georgia should drop Hollywood cold if they don’t bring in more money than they cost us.
While I agree that a cost/benefit analysis should be done (if it hasn’t been) obviously some people think that it is not a money losing endeavor at this point. So that is the assumption we are operating under.
The tax incentive is a 20-30% tax credit. Georgia’s corporate tax rate is 6%, and the payroll withholding is about 23% on average. So it’s probably in the ballpark to say that the tax credit is a wash- the production company would essentially owe little to no Georgia taxes. But that is only direct expenses and payroll for these companies. It doesn’t include all the suppliers and hotels and restaurants etc who also pay corporate taxes and payroll taxes to support this industry.
The governor said we spent about $500M in tax incentives in 2015, but with an economic impact of somewhere around $8-9B.
Don’t have time to comment much beyond this, but it should be noted:
1) There have been studies done on the economoic impacts. If I come across them again, I’ll post them.
2) “Unique DNA” can not be the definition of personhood. It can’t even be the definition of plant-hood. There are many more fine-tuned distinctions that should be recognized for any serious conversation.
3) On a related point, I can’t express any confidence in Michael’s above comment that GA legislators know the differences in biology at 4, 8, or 12 weeks. Definitions vary even as to when an embryo becomes a fetus.
Part of the issue is that there is much that varies case-by-case, and implementing a rule or process that doesn’t consider variances will lead to undesired outcomes on both sides of the line that’s drawn. Fortunately, at least doctors have an opportunity to look at individual cases. I would say any good rule or process includes and absorbs doctors’ observations.
Unique DNA, i.e. life begins at conception, is a much better definition of personhood than anything pro-choicers typically offer. Those who are pro-choice typically argue that personhood must include things such as consciousness and bodily independence. The problem is that pro-choice ideas about personhood are all intellectually incoherent. After all, if applied consistently, they would deny personhood to a whole range people born individuals such as infants, those in a coma and those on life support. Also, technically speaking, we are all just “clumps of cells,” so asserting that unborn children are “clumps of cells” doesn’t tell us anything meaningful about personhood either. Finally, arguing that the beginning of human personhood is “unclear” doesn’t work either. Since human life should be very highly valued, iIf there is any gray area involving life and death, the burden of proof should fall the heaviest on those seeking to potentially end human life. This includes issues such as the death penalty (which the state of Georgia should abolish), war and peace and certainly abortion.
Let’s follow that logic trail.
IVF is a form of fertility treatment for couples who’ve spent years trying to conceive naturally or who are incapable of conceiving naturally. For a lot of couples, it’s a last chance kind of treatment before they give up on having kids.
IVF involves the creation of multiple embryos, not all of them are implanted. The ones that aren’t get discarded. If life begins at conception, every single one of those embryos is a human life, are they not? Are fertility doctors committing murder when they discard embryos not used in an IVF procedure?
If those embryos don’t count as human beings, why not? They’re the same gestational age as an embryo fertilized in the womb.
And look, I don’t mean this to belittle your beliefs. You’re entitled to your belief about when human life begins.
I mean this to show that, no matter where the line is drawn, there are very real consequences for people, not just unborn people, but already born people (borned? bornt?), including people who’d love to have a baby of their own but, for whatever reason, have been unable to.
Grindelwald, I have major ethical problems with IVF as well. This is especially the case when it results in the creation of embryos that are discarded. I do feel for couples that struggle with infertility. We wife and I struggled to have more than one child biologically ourselves as we got started in our thirties, which is a little old. I would classify us as low fertility instead of infertile. In any case, we wanted to have a second child, but were unable to conceive a second time. So we became foster parents and eventually adopted a young child out of the foster care system here in Georgia. I won’t sugarcoat fostering and adopting as easy. It was a real joy, although was very hard at times. Nonetheless, with so many children in foster care and in need of adoption, for a number of reasons, I think it is generally a better option than IVF.
With all this said, you are right that no matter where one draws the line on this issue, there are indeed real life consequences for real people. My approach is that we as a society should always error on the side of life, children and the poor. I disagree with Democrats on their position on abortion and with Republicans on the death penalty and how to help the poor. My experience as a foster dad in Georgia has only reinforced my views on all of these issues.
Good on you for adopting and fostering. Seriously. It’s commendable.
Having been through multiple IVF cycles, this is an issue that’s important to me and to a lot of other couples.
There’s a reason Roe drew the line at “viability” (i.e., if the fetus was delivered today, could it reasonably survive outside the womb). It’s because the question of when a fetus becomes “a life” isn’t scientific, it’s a moral and cultural and religious question that isn’t neatly defined.
Grindelwald, I’m sure that going through multiple IVF cycles isn’t easy. I don’t know all of the technical aspects of it how it works, but I would hope that it could be done without destroying embryos.
My understanding is that Roe drew the line at the end of the first trimester, not viability. Still, for me viability isn’t a good place to draw the line. After all, by way of analogy, would you pull the plug on someone on a life support machine if they could survive on their own if you only left them on the machine for a few months? If not, there is likewise no reason to abortion a healthy fetus who hasn’t reached viability. I agree that the question of when individual human life begins is a philosophical and religious question, although certain science gives us some insight into this question as well. At any rate, for reasons I’ve already discussed, I don’t find pro-choice arguments about when life begins intellectual coherent or in any way compelling.
“Unique DNA, i.e. life begins at conception, is a much better definition of personhood than anything pro-choicers typically offer. ”
All due respect, that definition doesn’t even meet the biologic definition of a living thing. Furthermore, identical twins have the same dna. Does that mean it’s ok to abort one of them? The current standard is viability — the point at which the fetus can survive outside of the womb — and that’s the most reasonable standard there is as it balances the rights of the woman with the value of the potential of the unborn. Anything else is government overreach into personal and private decision making. Everyone is entitled to believe what they want about when life begins and apply that standard to their own choices. Everyone should not be free to make up a standard and forcibly apply it to strangers. If we as a society find abortion distasteful then there are things we can do with our tax dollars to reduce instances of it, namely widespread availability of birth control and sicence-based sex education. Passing restrictive laws just increases the risks to women in a state where pregnancy is already an unacceptably high risk to them.
North Carolina severely reduced their film tax incentives. Business went to GA. NC is now restoring the tax credit to get business back.
It is very selfish to deny your middle class neighbors the opportunity to earn a good living wage or make extra income on goods and services. These are everyday businesses, “producing quality products” that normal people use. Do you want to deny them business simply because the film industry also buys their goods?
No tax credit is given until the money is spent in GA on GA labor and purchases. Most productions never get the full 30% on their budget.
Would you deny losing sports teams to stay here? Why spend public money to build stadiums for losers? I might not be an avid game attending fan, but I know the balance of having these things in a community adds value.
Georgia cut taxes last year as Gov. Deal proudly proclaimed. It is disingenuous to whine about lost tax revenue if you support administrations that constantly cut tax revenue and important public services.
It isn’t selfish of me at all to deny my neighbors job opportunities if said opportunities are based on tax credits that are net losses to the state of Georgia. In that case, the tax credits are nothing but wasteful corporate welfare. If one other hand, solid academic studies show that tax credits, in this case to the film industry, indeed bring in more revenue on balance than they cost, then by all means, let’s keep them. I’d say the same principal applies to professional sports teams, which nationwide are notorious for demanding expensive stadiums from cities (and thus taxpayers) that often aren’t worth it.
Oh, and I did not vote for Nathan Deal for governor, either in 2010 or 2014. So I don’t feel the need to defend his policies.
Thanks Sancho, I’ve mentioned earlier that I work in the industry so I know what good paying film local jobs do for the economy, and increased state income tax revenue from the locals. I see thousands of businesses benefiting from purchases by production companies.
$2.5 billion annually in local spending may be a close estimate.
95,000 jobs per year may be true also. Caveat: I don’t think those are all single person, year round jobs, but a cumulative number local resident jobs for all annual productions.
I too wish there was a solid study that showed all the local wages, local spending and other economic benefits such as increase tourism. I truly believe that tax give back is small compared to the economic gain benefiting thousands of GA residents.
It’s not like GA gave away hundreds of millions to a carmaker upfront just to create 2500 jobs. (plus 5-7000 undetermined support supplier jobs).
https://www.georgiatrend.com/2009/08/01/how-kia-came-to-georgia/
“Incentives for Kia included: about $131 million in local tax abatements; another $250 million in state tax incentives; a $20 million training center to house the QuickStart program dedicated to training Kia’s workforce; and a rail spur from the nearby CSX line, because 80 percent of the cars will be shipped out by rail.”
NoParty4Me, I don’t doubt the film industry has created well-paying jobs in Georgia, although the key is whether the tax credits are a net loss or net gain for the state of Georgia overall. I’d apply this same principal to big manufacturers such as Kia as well. With all that said, I prefer industries such as the auto industry over the film industry. After all, irregardless of controversial social issues, it’s a lot easier for the film industry to pack up and leave the state of Georgia than a massive automobile plant like Kia’s. There’s a risk that any industry that comes to Georgia could eventually leave, but the film industry strikes me as one of the riskiest to go. And as you mention, some of the jobs they create aren’t year long jobs.
Totally agree that we need a definitive study that can prove direct benefit to the economy, meaning residents and businesses receiving income from the industry, is higher than any potential of lost tax revenue. I will point out the irony again about crying over lost revenue while government continues to reduce tax revenue. I think it is way higher and generates revenue from the locals that pay taxes to balance some of the incentives. The oft quoted figures of jobs and spending are never fully explained. I can work 2-6 jobs a year to fill my calendar. Background extras may work 30-40 shows to a year. Many, but not all, can claim full time employment. Georgia has expanded a lot of desirable studio spaces and support businesses for the film industry. But you are right it is a fickle business and will go where ever it is cheaper for production. We will see how long the cycle stays in Georgia, with or without social issues.
Sigh. It is costing us jobs! Fear! Dismay! Alarm! Yeah right. What about the policies that you support that cost us jobs? For those you either A) deny that they cost you jobs or B) say that the jobs that they cost you aren’t those you want anyway.
I am going to give you an example: education reform. You want jobs? Well try this: at various checkpoint grades you evaluate kids. Those who – to quote Ulysses McGill from O Brother Where Art Thou – demonstrate a capacity for abstract thought to the left. Everyone else … to the right. The left group gets a rigorous college prep curriculum based on the classical model … and yes their own schools dedicated for it. The other 60%-70% of the population: vocational training for you!
In 20 years we would have A) a cognitive elite of entrepreneurs, researchers, analysts and executives AND B) a very highly skilled cohort of mechanics, machinists, construction managers, logistics experts, allied health professionals, data center techs that would put most countries, let alone other states, to shame. And er, yes, replacing the “No Child Left Behind” and “Common Core” stuff with something like this would create a lot of jobs. It would also solve the problems associated with upper middle class people i.e. those not affluent enough to afford elite private schools abandoning urban and lately even inner suburban areas for exurban school systems that pretty much practice a form of this already.
But … you won’t go for that will you? Of course not. Because your personal values and ideology prefers attempting to construct a public education model where “every child has a fair and even chance to earn a master’s degree in cultural anthropology.” You prefer that to an education model where we would attract or cultivate Silicon Valley, Wall Street, Charlotte (finance), Connecticut (insurance) jobs for the cognitive elite plus the Boeing, Kia, Foxconn, ExxonMobil etc. plants for those not really into the if p then q but not q does not necessarily mean not p debates.
So no, you’re really no different from the pro-lifers when it comes to costing us jobs. The only difference is that the issues that are near and dear enough to you to forswear jobs over are.
Well that is a bad example. YOU try telling parents that their kid is assigned to the vocational path. That’s got nothing to do with left or right.
In the immortal words of Judge Elihu Smails, the world needs ditch diggers too.
Yeah, that idea is wholly un-American. You want the state to decide what each individual can do? Your “elite” would be the only ones prepared to work in a service economy. Also, you may not be aware of this but most of the jobs you list “to the right” also require a good bit of abstract thinking. Logistics experts have 4 year degrees. What you’re proposing is a state sanctioned caste system and I find it hard to believe anyone would go for that.
Also, wtf does this have to do with declaring a 6 week gestational embryo a fully independent human being? To illustrate why everyone here knows that’s BS, how many of you have come across a headstone for 6 week miscarriage?
This bill is horseshit and everyone knows it. It’s a ploy, and an expensive one at that. The Hollywood angle is being emphasized because it represents $$ which everyone knows Republicans care about. Personally, I’m not for corporate welfare and wouldn’t have a problem standing on principle if these were indeed our state’s principles but they are not. The majority of Georgians believe that abortion should be safe and legal in the first trimester.